DUST Search - Why the Logistics bonus is on Logistics suits.

Meeko Fent wrote:

Zero Harpuia wrote:

Meeko Fent wrote:

No class should get innate rep.

The only suit set I see this as ok with is the minis, because it's so small it's really almost negligible.

But a free complex armor repper? While other suits have to fit one?

Yeah, no. Logis can fit a repper just like everybody else.

That alone would bring their potential HP lead down to reasonable levels, where I would shut up about it.

That bonus could be used to improve their primary use, equipment use. Bonus. To general equipment efficiency, fitting reduction, ect.

Firstly, all suits have 2 bonuses, as of typing. Some EVE ships have as many as 6. I'm sure the DEVs will give Logi's bonuses to equipment when they get that coding snafu fixed.

As for the rest of your post, you didn't even read what I posted did you?

I explained why the Armor Repper doesn't change your 'potential HP'

I explained why Logis are the only ones that benefit from having this bonus, and how that benefit translates over to the other classes.

Just curious, but are you aware how much SP it costs to get that 'free' proto repper? To get Proto Reppers in general, you need to V out a x3 skill. Not too bad. To get the 'free' Proto repper, you need to V out a x8 skill.thats abit more than 2.6 times the amount of SP for something so minor.

So yea, no. Logis can NOT fit a Complex Repper like everyone else doesn't. Logi spent so much SP to keep himself alive between scraps and keep you alive.

I understand the first part. its the blanket bonus every logi suit gets. Replace the current with a equipment based one.

And a few complex repper adds a TON of extra EHP.

It opens another low slot, which logis already have TONS of, for another 150 HP.

Let me show some fits to show you my reasoning.

gK.0 With no comp repper- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDh1STNtRTd1R1pvMlRUbzJsRUFMeHc&usp=drive_web#gid=32

Even with 3 advanced equipment, the logi still has a hefty lead over the assault variant. 200 HP, roughly, so a logi can get 3 advance gear, with a 200 HP lead, the same DPS, with just a 20K increase in cost. Don't bring up "But its slower!" because we ALL know speed tanking has long since been sent to the graveyard, if it was worth a damn, then scouts should technically be winning EVERY gunfight.

Now, lets look at a fit WITH a complex armor repper. Linky.

Now, in this fit, it is the exact same as before, only the lows are changed to accommodate a complex armor repper. This is what I am hoping to be achieved. The only diference between this and a assault is 60 more HP, which is quite negligible, and a sidearm when it comes to straight up gun fight.

If you want more proof to this, just ask, and I'll make more fits that show how losing the passive rep will balance the assault and Logi in 1v1.

Please note, what I'm going for here is that, a logi suit in 1v1 with a assault should be a battle won by player skill, not the fact that a logi can eat more bullets,


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Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1251	Posted - 2013.11.27 00:12:00 - [1] - Quote Alot of people have talked on how they like the Logi class bonus, and how it should be on Assaults or Heavies or anything that isn't a Logi because it adds to combat survivability. Seeing as most Logis and anti-Logis are busy talking about Sidearms, I'll just take up the sword for this one. Logis, at a full Ved out racial, get a whole 5 Armor HP regen per second. This is equivalent with a single Prototype level personal Armor Repair Unit. Now, you might initially think "Armor reps make you live longer! If I'm doing the shooting/being shot at, I'd really like to live longer!" You would be, somewhat, right. But let's continue looking at this logically. If you are in a firefight, after 4-5 seconds one or both parties are usually cold as a Mackinaw's hull. This is because the TTK is pretty darn low, and because bullets hurt. They hurt so much in fact that most do well in excess of 30 damage a shot. It would take six seconds to walk off a single weak bullet. I'm pretty sure those who self-identify as 'Slayers' tend to get shot far more than a single time by automatic weaponry. It would, if you are lucky, cycle enough to help you survive that quarter-bullet that your HP was juuuuuuuuuuuuust lower than, effectively extending your HP bar by a grand TEN Armor HP. Man, that's totally a worthwhile bonus! So, I've said why this bonus is bad for Assault and Heavy, but why is it good for Logi? Logi has a Remote Repair Tool, and it can heal anyone except the Logi himself. As the bearer of Equipment, the Logi should usually be at the back and only get shot occasionally, usually when he uses that Repair Tool on a 'Slayer'. While these occasional scrapes hurt, they will eventually kill your Logistics support with cherry-taps if he has no on-board repair protocols. Even a Caldari Logistics doesn't want to wander around with only thirty of his 80-odd armor. Hence, the Logistics Armor Repair bonus. The Logi can get these scrapes healed efficiently by a 5 per second heal because he isn't on the front-lines. While an Assault would be sidelined for an unreal amount of time waiting for local reps to do their job, and a Heavy for potentially full minutes, a Logistics doesn't need to be in the fray and sucking down fire like a 'Slayer' does. He's hiding behind a rock waiting for his armor to come back, with the Assaults cycling out of battle and coming to him for repairs. Because he only takes one bullet every few seconds, the 5 HP repair can keep up with the demands of battle. So now, ask yourself. Do you STILL want the Logistics Armor repair Bonus on your Assault suit? Especially as a class wide bonus, you Caldari-wearers. There are far better things to put in that slot for the combat class, leave the reps to the Logi so he won't bleed out trying to sustain you. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1255	Posted - 2013.11.27 01:34:00 - [2] - Quote Sky Kage wrote: +1 great point but the assault bonus for the gallente is pretty darn stupid for an armor user, a hp regen for them would make sense. That's true, but I felt trying to say what would be better on Assaults would just complicate the issue and cause undue strife. I just wanted to clear up why this one isn't a good bonus. If I had to state something though, there really shouldn't be classwide bonuses. Just two or three bonuses per suit derived from the suit's skills. A bonus that works well on a Caldari suit might work horribly on a Gallente suit, so they need to be tailored to the individual suits. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1255	Posted - 2013.11.27 01:37:00 - [3] - Quote Tectonic Fusion wrote: Just add a built in 5 rep rate on assault armor tankers, and 3 on logi armor tankers. Problem solved. Also buff the rate of shield recharge and delay, and freaking give the Caldari Logistics at least 20 CPU back to at least the basic/advanced, and god us sticky remote explosives. ...ok? Related to the OP tangentially at best. I just got through saying why Assault wouldn't get anything from active reps of such a small degree. If anything, Armor Tanking Assaults should get bonuses to Armor Plates, or bonuses to lower their speed reductions. I don't see why you would lower the Logi bonus, nor why you wouldn't want it on Shield Tank Logis. The Armor Repair function is NOT about armor tanking, it is about longevity in the absence of another Remote Repair Tool. Even Caldari Logi need to have their Armor repaired from time to time. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1255	Posted - 2013.11.27 01:41:00 - [4] - Quote Maximus Stryker wrote: Sky Kage wrote: +1 great point but the assault bonus for the gallente is pretty darn stupid for an armor user, a hp regen for them would make sense. isn't the assault bonus reducing CPU/PG of light weapons? than seems pretty useful... The currrent Assault-wide bonus is a decrease to shield downtime. They get their shield to start back faster basically, if I remember right. This isn't as useful for, say, Gallente Assaults than the other races, but it does do a little something for everyone because of the nature of shields. It is a relic of Caldari being the original Assault class. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1256	Posted - 2013.11.27 04:26:00 - [5] - Quote As a small caveat, I left Scouts out on purpose. Due to the nature of a Scout (fast, small HP bar, operates without support) he can easily sprint past trouble while maintaining a decent amount of health, if he uses cover. If his armor repaired itself as well as his shields, he would be the ultimate 'worrier', or to use the more common parlance, a great kite, rarely exposing himself to danger, taking a few hits, and rapidly fixing himself back up before the next engagement of his choosing. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1256	Posted - 2013.11.27 17:43:00 - [6] - Quote Cosgar wrote: To be honest the blanket class bonus system is pretty stupid in general. I'd rather just have a second racial. Like for Minmatar logi, an increase to deployable equipment carried and active or an efficacy bonus for GaLogi. I stated that above, but I'm trying to make sense of what we have rather than beg for what we want. Other, better people have done that, like KAGEHOSHI's thread-naught. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1259	Posted - 2013.11.27 19:55:00 - [7] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: Assuming I could get that instant +5 on my caldari assault shield rep, I'd have to say what?... Are you a complete failure? While running around in ADV suit with complex extenders in a large majority of the engagements I get back in cover before dying, and if there was an instant extra +5 rep on my main tank it would have made a huge difference. Perhaps you just suck at playing? Must you instantly devolve into personal attacks? You could instead try to point out flaws in my logic. Here, let me show you how it's done. You are in combat. You are fighting, but you've taken armor damage. You decide to hide behind a rock and wait for that damage to get repaired. Lets say that you only got shot in the armor ONCE. You will have to stay behind that cover for SIX seconds, allowing the enemy to freely advance on your position, or to throw a grenade at your entrenched tail because you couldn't keep them far away enough. You now have full Assault Suit armor and a grenade nestled under you like a penguin and his egg. Have fun with that mental image. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1259	Posted - 2013.11.28 02:51:00 - [8] - Quote Another quick caveat, Amarr Logistics has further active armor repair through its bonuses to Armor Repper output. Why would it be on him instead of the gallente Logi? GalLogi in DUST tend to have more armor dependence after all, and that still holds true for the Logi. Maybe they're just trying to stick to themes, with Amarr having the Heavy and therefore more HP while Gallente have reduced fitting costs? Nothing so silly. Amarr have increased personal reppers because they are the grey area. They are half Assault half Logistics. They are expected to be in closer proximity to combat then their contemporaries like the GalLogi. They have the added self repair rate to make up for the greater armor loss incurred, but also to de-incentivize using Armor Plates and other Low Slot versatility modules. This makes them good for entering and maintaining themselves in combat zones, healing and scanning, while still maintaining their life with a full selection of arms and a decent self-repair rate, while making sure that the other Logis (like the Minmatar) have more hacking or (like the Gallente) have better equipment, while still having less in-combat survivability than Assaults, who can afford to use those low slots to buffer themselves with Plates. Especially if they have a Logi who can afford to stay right there with them. Hence, Amarr logi bonus :D Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1260	Posted - 2013.11.28 03:10:00 - [9] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: Alot of people have talked on how they like the Logi class bonus, and how it should be on Assaults or Heavies or anything that isn't a Logi because it adds to combat survivability. Seeing as most Logis and anti-Logis are busy talking about Sidearms, I'll just take up the sword for this one. Logis, at a full Ved out racial, get a whole 5 Armor HP regen per second. This is equivalent with a single Prototype level personal Armor Repair Unit. Now, you might initially think "Armor reps make you live longer! If I'm doing the shooting/being shot at, I'd really like to live longer!" You would be, somewhat, right. But let's continue looking at this logically. If you are in a firefight, after 4-5 seconds one or both parties are usually cold as a Mackinaw's hull. This is because the TTK is pretty darn low, and because bullets hurt. They hurt so much in fact that most do well in excess of 30 damage a shot. It would take six seconds to walk off a single weak bullet. I'm pretty sure those who self-identify as 'Slayers' tend to get shot far more than a single time by automatic weaponry. It would, if you are lucky, cycle enough to help you survive that quarter-bullet that your HP was juuuuuuuuuuuuust lower than, effectively extending your HP bar by a grand TEN Armor HP. Man, that's totally a worthwhile bonus! So, I've said why this bonus is bad for Assault and Heavy, but why is it good for Logi? Logi has a Remote Repair Tool, and it can heal anyone except the Logi himself. As the bearer of Equipment, the Logi should usually be at the back and only get shot occasionally, usually when he uses that Repair Tool on a 'Slayer'. While these occasional scrapes hurt, they will eventually kill your Logistics support with cherry-taps if he has no on-board repair protocols. Even a Caldari Logistics doesn't want to wander around with only thirty of his 80-odd armor. Hence, the Logistics Armor Repair bonus. The Logi can get these scrapes healed efficiently by a 5 per second heal because he isn't on the front-lines. While an Assault would be sidelined for an unreal amount of time waiting for local reps to do their job, and a Heavy for potentially full minutes, a Logistics doesn't need to be in the fray and sucking down fire like a 'Slayer' does. He's hiding behind a rock waiting for his armor to come back, with the Assaults cycling out of battle and coming to him for repairs. Because he only takes one bullet every few seconds, the 5 HP repair can keep up with the demands of battle. So now, ask yourself. Do you STILL want the Logistics Armor repair Bonus on your Assault suit? Especially as a class wide bonus, you Caldari-wearers. There are far better things to put in that slot for the combat class, leave the reps to the Logi so he won't bleed out trying to sustain you. If logis are to keep their Bonus they need to have the SAME amount of slots than assaults.(And they STILL have an ADVANTAGE ) Please explain your reasoning. I'm not stating what the Assaults should have, just that this bonus is very, very bad for them. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1260	Posted - 2013.11.28 03:13:00 - [10] - Quote Ripcord19981 wrote: the problem is, most "slayers" are better off using the logi suits than the assault suits That is a symptom of other factors in DUST, such as the Assaults not having a combat boost, the Logi having more slots and fitting as a clumsy work-around for not being able to give them 'reduction to X equipment fitting' and the TTK being too short to require Sidearms mid-fight. The Logistics bonus has nothing to do with the disconnect, however. Shields as Weapons

Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1261	Posted - 2013.11.28 03:21:00 - [11] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: Please explain your reasoning. I'm not stating what the Assaults should have, just that this bonus is very, very bad for them. The Logi Keeps their bonuses but get a Slot reduction to be in PAR With Assaults. They still ahve 5 armor rep / sec They still have Massive CPU and PG,only ; its probably going to be used for better equipment. Mk.0 (not in the same form as the Assault please) Say 4-4 Gk.0 3-4 AK.0 2-4 Ck.0 4.3 (i left 4 and 4 for the Minnie logi, making it the most versatile,being the one that has the most specific bonus too and the weaker....) This is my opinion only of course, but not only the logi has a LOT more slots than the assaults (in the case of the Cal Logi, -1 Sidearm for +2 Equipment slot,+1 Low P Module Slot , +1 High P Module Slot AND armor rep or in the case of Amarr Logi +1 L but with armor repair inclided...) Logis still maintain their advantage, only a little more balanced: That Slot that is being removed represents the 72-148 HP Difference Logis usually have over Assaults.Of course in the case a Logi JUST tanks they will still have more HP than an assault (since they can choose to avoid fitting a Cx Armor Rep Module) But the HP Difference will be balanced considering the Speed/Stamina/Shield Regen of the Assaults. Again IMO.... (Well i have to make more Fittings for my A/1 Series Logi..be right back...) I'll wait, this space for rent. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1261	Posted - 2013.11.28 03:53:00 - [12] - Quote ZeHealingHurts HurtingHeals wrote: I would've thought the bonus for assault would be some kind of increase to light weapon use. Like extra ammunition or reload speed. Something. A decrease in damage modifiers maybe? I dunno. Like I said, I didn't say what should go there, only what shouldn't. As for what should, something directly applicable to combat, but not a direct damage buff. The Amarr Assault has one that would serve as a nice guideline for the other races. Reload Speed isn't on the table however. We are already barely reliant on Sidearms as-is, and the Commando Suit's whole shtick is to reload faster so he can use each Light Weapon in their prominent role instead of swapping, if I remember correctly. Haven't looked at Commando since it came out... It would kill any reason to spec into the poor fellow. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1263	Posted - 2013.11.28 19:42:00 - [13] - Quote KING CHECKMATE wrote: ok im back, go on... I edited my 'rented space' post, please continue Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1267	Posted - 2013.11.28 20:19:00 - [14] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: OP you're missing the point that this 5hp/s bonus = one more armour plate that can afford to be fitted. It's a bonus that really only benefits the traditional logis, best embodied by the current Gallente logi. It may allow 'one more plate' but that isn't the point I'm making. The point is that with the bonus the Logi doesn't need to equip a self repper, nor does anyone else because the Logi is their repper. I'm not trying to bog the thread down in useless speculation on 'Logi OP, Nerf X' just stating why the Logi has this bonus and why it makes far more sense than most care to admit. Also, by 'traditional' I hope you mean ones that do Logi things. Like I stated in the OP, 5HP per second won't help you in a combat situation. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1267	Posted - 2013.11.28 20:26:00 - [15] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: No class should get innate rep. The only suit set I see this as ok with is the minis, because it's so small it's really almost negligible. But a free complex armor repper? While other suits have to fit one? Yeah, no. Logis can fit a repper just like everybody else. That alone would bring their potential HP lead down to reasonable levels, where I would shut up about it. That bonus could be used to improve their primary use, equipment use. Bonus. To general equipment efficiency, fitting reduction, ect. Firstly, all suits have 2 bonuses, as of typing. Some EVE ships have as many as 6. I'm sure the DEVs will give Logi's bonuses to equipment when they get that coding snafu fixed. As for the rest of your post, you didn't even read what I posted did you? I explained why the Armor Repper doesn't change your 'potential HP' I explained why Logis are the only ones that benefit from having this bonus, and how that benefit translates over to the other classes. Just curious, but are you aware how much SP it costs to get that 'free' proto repper? To get Proto Reppers in general, you need to V out a x3 skill. Not too bad. To get the 'free' Proto repper, you need to V out a x8 skill.thats abit more than 2.6 times the amount of SP for something so minor. So yea, no. Logis can NOT fit a Complex Repper like everyone else doesn't. Logi spent so much SP to keep himself alive between scraps and keep you alive. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1268	Posted - 2013.11.28 23:35:00 - [16] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: Meeko Fent wrote: No class should get innate rep. The only suit set I see this as ok with is the minis, because it's so small it's really almost negligible. But a free complex armor repper? While other suits have to fit one? Yeah, no. Logis can fit a repper just like everybody else. That alone would bring their potential HP lead down to reasonable levels, where I would shut up about it. That bonus could be used to improve their primary use, equipment use. Bonus. To general equipment efficiency, fitting reduction, ect. Firstly, all suits have 2 bonuses, as of typing. Some EVE ships have as many as 6. I'm sure the DEVs will give Logi's bonuses to equipment when they get that coding snafu fixed. As for the rest of your post, you didn't even read what I posted did you? I explained why the Armor Repper doesn't change your 'potential HP' I explained why Logis are the only ones that benefit from having this bonus, and how that benefit translates over to the other classes. Just curious, but are you aware how much SP it costs to get that 'free' proto repper? To get Proto Reppers in general, you need to V out a x3 skill. Not too bad. To get the 'free' Proto repper, you need to V out a x8 skill.thats abit more than 2.6 times the amount of SP for something so minor. So yea, no. Logis can NOT fit a Complex Repper like everyone else doesn't. Logi spent so much SP to keep himself alive between scraps and keep you alive. I understand the first part. its the blanket bonus every logi suit gets. Replace the current with a equipment based one. And a few complex repper adds a TON of extra EHP. It opens another low slot, which logis already have TONS of, for another 150 HP. Let me show some fits to show you my reasoning. gK.0 With no comp repper- https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNsTEpFxMxPdDh1STNtRTd1R1pvMlRUbzJsRUFMeHc&usp=drive_web#gid=32 Even with 3 advanced equipment, the logi still has a hefty lead over the assault variant. 200 HP, roughly, so a logi can get 3 advance gear, with a 200 HP lead, the same DPS, with just a 20K increase in cost. Don't bring up "But its slower!" because we ALL know speed tanking has long since been sent to the graveyard, if it was worth a damn, then scouts should technically be winning EVERY gunfight. Now, lets look at a fit WITH a complex armor repper. Linky. Now, in this fit, it is the exact same as before, only the lows are changed to accommodate a complex armor repper. This is what I am hoping to be achieved. The only diference between this and a assault is 60 more HP, which is quite negligible, and a sidearm when it comes to straight up gun fight. If you want more proof to this, just ask, and I'll make more fits that show how losing the passive rep will balance the assault and Logi in 1v1. Please note, what I'm going for here is that, a logi suit in 1v1 with a assault should be a battle won by player skill, not the fact that a logi can eat more bullets, Your argument isn't about getting rid of the Logi bonus, you just want the Logi to have less slots. I can agree with that, but please keep it to your own thread. Just because my thread has the word Logistics in it doesn't mean you can bring up every aspect of the Logi here. My thread is about why the Logi has his bonus, not why the Logi has so many slots or why the Logi has so much fitting. I have, in fact, stated that they shouldn't have quite so much. Just up above in fact, when asked by CHECKMATE. It is irritating to have to restate myself because you read only part of the thread. Thanks for the bums though. It's hard to keep these kinds of threads on topic before people start going off on tangents, so sorry if I'm being short with you. Shields as Weapons
Zero Harpuia Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 1269	Posted - 2013.11.29 00:09:00 - [17] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: Zero Harpuia wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: OP you're missing the point that this 5hp/s bonus = one more armour plate that can afford to be fitted. It's a bonus that really only benefits the traditional logis, best embodied by the current Gallente logi. It may allow 'one more plate' but that isn't the point I'm making. The point is that with the bonus the Logi doesn't need to equip a self repper, nor does anyone else because the Logi is their repper. I'm not trying to bog the thread down in useless speculation on 'Logi OP, Nerf X' just stating why the Logi has this bonus and why it makes far more sense than most care to admit. Also, by 'traditional' I hope you mean ones that do Logi things. Like I stated in the OP, 5HP per second won't help you in a combat situation. Like talking to a wall. Thanks for the bumps then, don't trip over the thread on your way out. Shields as Weapons